To mark the UN's 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, Ellie Eckersley and Anushka Swannell interviewed Jack McGeehan and Carolina Hinojosa's work as Project Coordinators for Salford Foundation’s Steps Programme. Below is the interview written by Ellie Eckersley.
Overview of the Steps Programme
Within their roles, they have designed a curriculum for boys spanning across Years 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, aimed at educating them on Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG). The programme runs across classes within participating schools for five weeks throughout the year. It covers topics relating to misogyny, gender stereotyping, and how these might appear in both online and offline contexts for boys, supporting them to see how these issues are relevant to all aspects of their lives.
Carolina shared, “We’ve been doing direct delivery within schools and delivering these workshops with boys. However, we are trying to move towards more of a whole-school approach, so we’re currently focusing on training up teachers to be able to deliver this curriculum and support their schools to acknowledge the impacts of misogyny and gender stereotyping on their students.”
Jack added, “Over the next academic year, we’re taking an approach to best spread our resources and support the schools we’re already working with to build up a policy review process. Some of those schools are offering initial co-delivery training and have been working with a consultant, Janice Allen, who has been instrumental in policy reviews in schools. We’re looking at what the responses to these reviews are, for example, does the behaviour policy match up with the relationship-based restorative approach we want them to be taking?
Shifting Toward a Whole-School Approach
“We want the schools we’ve worked in to appoint a lead to co-deliver alongside us and reach more boys than we would be able to individually, to create a greater sense of integration. We also want to offer termly support to schools that are new to this work, giving them an overview of how we approach these issues, what our perspectives are, and why prevention work is key. We’re also planning participant-guided community meetings that take place online, allowing schools to bring their issues and questions to us. For newly engaging schools, these meetings are helpful because they show that others are already a few steps down the road. A large part of this work is recognising that teachers are already connected with their students, it’s just about building on this and increasing teachers’ confidence.”
In discussing how different schools respond to the issue of VAWG and misogyny, Jack and Carolina explained that the voluntary nature of the programme means that the schools they engage with often already have a vested interest in the issue. However, they also highlighted how frequently these issues are already affecting both students and staff.
“Sometimes the conversations we have with staff are more about how to start conversations with other staff members,” Carolina said, “to help them approach the topic with their students or at least think about their language. For example, saying something like, ‘We need a big strong boy to pick this up,’ might seem like a small comment, but it’s important that staff understand how this contributes to a wider problem.”
Jack explained, “It’s the teachers that we’re looking to really interrogate the issue with, but it’s not just true for them – it’s true for the students as well. With any social issue, you exist in the same society where the issue you’re trying to fix is happening, and it’s about recognising that you cannot separate yourself from it. Professionals often talk about the issue as though it’s removed from themselves, without acknowledging that they are also part of this socialisation.”
Jack also acknowledged that this mindset is often very difficult to achieve and doesn’t come naturally, but it’s exactly what he and Carolina aim to help teachers working with young boys to understand. “You can’t do this and teach maths at the same time,” he continued. “We shouldn’t be expecting teachers to just jam this into their busy schedules, or worse, expect them to do this as unpaid work. That’s not fair, and that’s always a challenge we have. We want it to be as normative as possible, and what we don’t want is for it to be super laborious. But at the same time, having a super laborious behaviour policy that you’re constantly having to go back to isn’t helpful either. So, we do think that if you put in the work upfront, it makes people’s jobs easier and, more importantly, makes people’s lives safer.”
Carolina added, “Everyone has the same intention when inviting us into the school. It’s all done voluntarily. It’s about being able to support them as a school, but also as professionals.”
Challenges and Variations Across Schools
To understand Jack and Carolina’s perspective on the costs and benefits of external facilitators delivering these sessions rather than teachers themselves, Carolina referred to existing studies around relationship and sex education provision, under which Steps falls. These studies show that children often prefer to have these types of conversations with external facilitators, which is why there is such a big market within the third and private sectors.
“However,” Carolina said, “while it is beneficial to have someone external like us come in, we don’t want the issue of Violence Against Women and Girls to be seen solely as something external facilitators can deal with. For example, saying, ‘Let’s do an assembly about it,’ doesn’t work. We want teachers to feel confident to talk about it. The boys we work with want to have these conversations, and they value having us as adults they can talk to about these topics. But since we don’t see them that often, it’s important to have a trusted adult within the school community who can support the work we’ve done and continue those conversations we’ve started, someone the boys can go to and talk to.”
Jack explained, “Having the time and flexibility that we have to do this as external facilitators, where we don’t have to meet the demands of an Ofsted inspection, for example, means we have more time to think and be reflective about what is working, what isn’t, and to tear out the bits that we want to change about the programme. We see that there is a real need for this work to be embedded within schools. During the five weeks that we have with the boys for one hour each week, the chance of them being in the right headspace for these conversations during that single hour is very unlikely. Their teachers, however, see them all the time – for some of them, over several years in both primary and secondary school. Teachers have more opportunities for disclosures and for longer-term developmental conversations. This also links back into behaviour policies and the broader staff approach.
However, class teachers are often not involved in our sessions, depend on timetabling, and are not always present during the workshops. This means they don’t really know what goes on in the sessions. When we’re at high delivery, we’re in and out of schools very quickly. Although we do provide feedback to the schools, we don’t often get the chance to talk to the teachers directly. Sometimes boys will bring up something that has happened and want to have a conversation about it, but we can’t be deeply involved because of our limited contact. If there were internal staff working on this within the school, they would have more opportunities to have those conversations and fill in the gaps when they arise.”
Jack and Carolina both reflected on how they are dedicated to both parts of this work – engaging with the children directly and supporting teachers to build their own skills. Carolina said, “Lots of the feedback from staff is that we’re able to give insight into youth culture or boy culture, and to advocate for their perspective, what they might be thinking or consuming online, for example. Through the media or political landscape, this often shifts towards a negative perspective of boys. We do a lot of work with the Boys Impact Hub, who promote a strength-based approach to working with young people.”
Jack added, “When it comes to upskilling teachers around this kind of work, we talk about having a dedicated, open, and non-judgemental space for boys. The kinds of attitudes and approaches to gender that we want to deconstruct are often considered ‘unacceptable’ within schools, so boys may feel they can’t say what they really think because they’ll get into trouble. Having a non-judgemental space allows them to express those thoughts so that we can unpack them, and the same applies for teachers too.
Navigating Boys’ and Girls’ Different Experiences of VAWG
“You can work with someone for a long time and realise they hold views that enable VAWG. It can be quite shocking, but it’s the reality we find ourselves in. We encourage schools to bring staff into the conversation and allow them to be open without feeling like it might damage their professional standing. It’s tricky because that shouldn’t be the priority, but reflexive work can’t just be sitting down and congratulating each other on what’s going right. You have to ask: what are we doing wrong? And understand that the things we’re doing wrong don’t make us bad people or ill-intentioned – it just means we haven’t got it right yet. That’s often tricky for people to reflect on.
We are a very small team, with our manager Jo and Janice from TLC, but the team we’ve built is equally important to our approach. Otherwise, we could just go in and host a staff meeting or hand out an email script, but it doesn’t work that way. It has to be relational reflexivity.”
A key point that Jack and Carolina shared is the significance of having this programme aimed specifically at boys, and how they approach this work in a way that also recognises how girls experience VAWG, misogyny, and gender stereotyping. Carolina explained, “I’ve had some really interesting conversations in sessions, and sometimes the question arises of whether it should just be men facilitating these sessions. In one session, the Year 8 boys reached a point where they were able to ask me about my experience of being a woman and about misogyny, specifically internalised misogyny. The way that we format our conversations is that everyone hears these messages, and they impact how people see themselves and others. The boys were able to begin developing empathy for women. It’s about focusing on both groups and recognising how rigid gender norms impact everyone’s experiences. I think having female teachers and facilitators gives boys the chance to ask about how what they’ve learned has impacted us as well.”
Addressing Online Influences and the Manosphere
Jack further added, “We had a previous project where we went in and had conversations with boys, asking them about their experiences of gender – whether gender felt important to them and whether male role models mattered. We were both pretty sceptical about whether an 11-year-old from Bolton was particularly concerned about masculinity or more about Manchester United. But we eventually understood there was a real need to work with boys, while also looking at a future partner project for girls. One of the challenges with integrated sessions is that boys’ and girls’ experiences of the topic can differ significantly. It’s not due to a gender difference or something innate, it’s about how society treats them. Statistically, very few of the boys we work with will have experienced gender-based violence, especially at this age. If we worked with a group of girls, it would likely be the opposite, most would have experienced or will go on to experience gender-based violence. That would not only make the conversations very different but also raise safeguarding concerns.
We have both a universal provision and a targeted provision designed by TLC for boys who might need more structured support, or who find larger group discussions difficult, especially around this topic. The aim is for them to reach the same outcomes as the universal cohort. This also assumes schools will know who has experienced or witnessed VAWG, but there will be many girls who haven’t disclosed their experiences. So, a universal mixed-gender approach isn’t suitable. We would love to do a girls’ project too, but we currently don’t have the time or capacity.”
Carolina explained that the curriculum also touches on online content. “When we talk to boys about online spaces and the Manosphere, we’ve done lots of research into it. A lot of that content is geared towards boys under the guise of self-improvement. We tell them that these people don’t actually want to help them and it makes sense that they would want advice when they feel insecure or confused. But those online sources aren’t looking out for them. It’s better to talk to their friends and people around them. Hopefully, this helps them see the imbalance between real self-improvement and tying their worth to financial success or romantic conquests.”
VCSE Sector Collaboration with Schools & Why Early Prevention Work Matters
Jack added, “We take a systems-based and community-focused approach to finding solutions. We were once encouraged to produce crib sheets for specific online influencers, like Andrew Tate, but I don’t think he’s the problem, he’s a symptom of the problem. It sounds cliche, but when you build an economy purely around attention, the people who are best at getting attention will do well. It’s a system that socialises them this way. When you look at it through that lens, it’s a less divisive approach. The world built around profit and attention assigns you to certain categories including gender, race, nationality and class, that fragments society. We want to help boys see that problems in society aren’t caused by ‘bad people doing bad things,’ but by systems that encourage, excuse, or reward that behaviour. We encourage the boys through active bystanding, helping them build empathy for their peers and take ownership of their communities, whether that’s their school, Manchester, or the UK. We tell them it’s about solidarity, not blame. People don’t get involved in causes by being made to feel bad.”
Jack and Carolina also believe that the VCSE sector plays an important role in integrating work with young people in schools to tackle VAWG. “We don’t want schools to rely on external facilitators,” Carolina said, “but rather to make this work more integrated within the curriculum. There’s a real opportunity for collaboration between the VCSE sector and school-based educators. Because Jack and I have the time to read and reflect on research, we can help bridge that gap and support schools to address these wider issues in a more informed way. The same goes for tackling racism.”
When discussing how Steps acknowledges the issue of VAWG and misogyny for young boys as they grow into their teenage years, Jack highlighted the importance of prevention work. “Research shows that prevention work with young people leads to longer-term impact. However, that’s tricky to measure because you do the work now and only see the results years later. It’s difficult to approach parents about this topic without them thinking we’re implying their son is a future perpetrator. Our approach is always strength-based, helping boys become more prepared. While hardly any of the boys we work with will go on to become perpetrators, the reality is that most perpetrators are men. When we speak to boys about their friendship groups, most are made up of other boys. So, it doesn’t work to just police behaviour in classrooms. Misogynistic behaviour often happens among peers, outside those settings.
We aim to change that by helping boys become more reflective, encouraging them to challenge comments when they hear them, or at least remove themselves from situations. I personally don’t think a five-week programme is sufficient to achieve this, which is why we want to embed a whole-school approach. Chances are, many will forget the content after the programme finishes or won’t be in a receptive mood during a session. Teachers, however, are there every day and can model positive behaviour and reinforce these messages.”
Stories from the Steps Programme & Positive Outcomes and School Feedback
Jack also reflected on some of the positive feedback they’ve received from schools: “We’ve had feedback where incidents have occurred in classrooms, and boys have referred back to Steps during restorative meetings, recognising what needs to change. Most people don’t think about this stuff day-to-day, and it’s hard for us to imagine that in our line of work. But we want the boys to have a positive experience and reflect on it in the future.”
He shared a story that stands out to him – “In a primary school in central Manchester, I’ve had a very positive experience there. They’ve been really flexible and even asked if I’d like to be a governor next year to help implement the programme long-term. The boys are fantastic, insightful, diverse, and thoughtful for their age group. It reflects the school’s underlying work on social inequality. The boys come to the sessions already making these connections. Although I must say, all the schools we work with are fantastic and deserve praise.”
Carolina recalled another story – “I remember one school where boys joined us for the universal sessions and then went on to targeted work. The teachers warned us about one particular boy who had a reputation for being an Andrew Tate fan. He was quite quiet but asked lots of insightful questions. By the end of the 12 weeks, after working with me and Bonnie, he was shocked by how embedded gender inequality and misogyny are in society. He couldn’t believe women didn’t always have the right to vote and said he didn’t want that kind of inequality to happen again. It showed how, if you give boys information and space, they don’t want to live in an unequal world.”
Future Developments: SEND, Post-16, and Long-Term Trials
Jack and Carolina are looking ahead to future developments for Steps. They are working with their next cohort of schools across Greater Manchester, with a particular focus on primary schools. They are also developing a SEND provision, building on their experience working with boys in mainstream schools and now partnering with organisations to ensure it’s delivered appropriately in SEND settings. Additionally, they have begun work with post-16 schools. Although these institutions aren’t required to deliver relationship and sex education, Jack and Carolina aim to share their research and create adaptable resources suitable for these environments. They are also pursuing a longer-term trial of the Steps programme and its core curriculum, which focuses on boys in Years 5 to 9, to strengthen its long-term impact and sustainability.
How to Learn More or Get Involved
If you are interested in finding out more about the Steps programme, please see their website: https://www.salfordfoundation.org.uk/services/young-people/steps/
If you have any enquiries about working with Carolina and Jack, please get in touch with them
Email: enquiries@salfordfoundation.org.uk
Phone: 0161 787 8500